Posts from April 2005

Richard: Well, she was…

Richard:

Well, she was famous for a few other things, too, as I recall…

IIRC, she championed the notion, along with Catherine Mackinnon, that all heterosexual sense was rape. Got a penis? You’re a rapist.

You don’t recall correctly. Andrea Dworkin never said this. Neither did Catharine MacKinnon. There is no support for the claim anywhere in their writings and they have both explicitly denied that they believe this when asked point-blank.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever read anything by Andrea Dworkin? I mean, actually read it, from beginning to end?

“Yet one of her…

“Yet one of her more egrigious claims—that all heterosexual sex is rape—has had a far reaching and, I believe, stultifying effect on how we perceive female sexual freedom and sexual eaxpression.”

Maybe this is an egregious claim, and maybe the claim has a stultifying effect. But it’s not a claim that I’ve ever seen anywhere in Dworkin’s writings, and she has explicitly stated in interviews that she doesn’t believe that and never said it.

So why repeat the claim that she says “all heterosexual sex is rape”? If she did make this claim, where could I find it in her writings?

First you said that…

First you said that 92% of men do NOT committ rape, then later say that in a room of 12 men, there’s a 92% chance that one of them a rapist. That makes no sense.

There’s no inconsistency here, just a calculation error. I made a dumb mistake in calculating the probability of at least one of 12 men in a room being a rapist if 1 out of every 12 men in the general population has committed rape. Here is the actual figure. If 1 in 12 men have committed rape, then the chance that there is at least one man who has committed rape in a group of 12 men is the chance that it’s not the case that none of them have committed rape. The chance that any one man hasn’t committed rape is 11/12, and since the probabilities are independent of one another the chance that none of them has is (11/12)^12, or about 0.35. So if you are in a room with 12 men the chances that at least one is a rapist are about 100%-35%, or 65%.

I don’t know about you, but I still don’t like those odds.

I question the validity of that really, but I’ll assume it’s true for the sake of argument. You said that you don’t know if 8% qualifies as a vast, overwhelming majority?

No, I didn’t; you misunderstood what I wrote. I questioned whether 92% qualifies as “a vast, overwhelming majority.” The answer is that “vast” and “overwhelming” are not precise modifiers for “majority.” Whether a particular majority is “vast” or “overwhelming” usually depends on the purposes you have in making a distinction between the vast majorities and the ordinary kind. If there’s a 11:1 ratio in favor of watching MASH instead of Cheers, it makes sense to say “Let’s watch MASH. The vast, overwhelming majority of us want to watch MASH.” If there were a car that exploded and killed 1 out of every 12 people who used it, it wouldn’t make sense to say “Why worry? The vast, overwhelming majority of those cars don’t explode and kill you.”

I’ll leave it up to you whether you think the stakes involved in the matter of committing rape are more like the stakes involved in danger to life or limb, or those involved in choosing the right teevee show.

Tish: “And if you…

Tish:

“And if you haven’t sat in a throwback Women’s Studies course these days, don’t assume Dworkin’s rhetoric has been debunked.”

You missed the point. What Jim said has been repeatedly “debunked” is not the claim that “all heterosexual sex is rape.” What he (rightly) said has been repeatedly “debunked” is the claim that Andrea Dworkin ever claimed this in the first place. If you claim that she said it, you are claiming something false. This has not just been debunked online; it’s been debunked in print by Andrea Dworkin herself, in interviews , right at the front of the book in the preface to the tenth-anniversary edition of Intercourse (cf. pages ix-x).

‘Also, check the link on the Guardian site about Dworkin’s “rape” when she was in Europe….and how her essay re-confirms her dislike of heterosexual sex.’

Andrea said that she had been drugged and fucked while she was half-conscious and unable to consent. That’s rape, without any sleazy scare-quotes. You’re free to believe that it didn’t happen, but then you ought to say “alleged rape” or “supposed rape”, rather than suggesting that something happened to her other than “real” rape.

In any case, I’m not sure what this is supposed to prove. What she said in the article is that she has chosen not to have intercourse. So what? That’s her business. Lots of lesbians don’t like heterosexual intercourse. That doesn’t mean that they, or she, thinks that all heterosexual sex is rape.

“For Dworkin, straight sex was rape.”

According to what? Where does she say this?

Aegis: I don’t know…

Aegis:

I don’t know if I buy the claim that society as a whole pretty much condones rape of the vulnerable. Please explain.

Well, there’s lots of data collected on rape-myth acceptance over the past three decades. For example, here are some results published in 1995. Among high school students in the Midwest:

The Kruskal-Wallis one-way analysis of variance tests identified significant differences between females’ and males’ responses for five of nine knowledge items. … Likewise, females (45%) were significantly more likely than males (31%) to agree that the guy is totally at fault if a gift dresses very sexy and gets raped on a date (item 7). Finally, significantly more females (81%) than males (62%) disagreed that you have no right to change your mind and keep your partner from having sex with you after you both get “turned on” (item 9).

— Telljohann, Price, Summers, Everett, and Casler, “High school students’ perceptions on nonconsensual sexual activity.” Journal of School Health (March 1, 1995)

Among American eighth graders:

Significant differences between females and males were seen in a number of specific rape myth statements (Table 1). Adolescent males were twice as likely as adolescent females (56.8% and 27.5%) to believe “A woman who goes to the home or apartment of a man on their first date implies that she is willing to have sex” (Item 1, Table 1). Males were twice as likely as females (45.1% and 22.9%) to accept the rape myth “A woman who is stuck-up and thinks she is too good to talk to guys on the street deserves to be taught a lesson” (Item 9, Table 1). Males were more likely than females to agree with the statements, “If a girl is making out and she lets things get out of hand, it is her own fault if her partner forces sex on her” and “In the majority of rapes, the victim is loose or has a bad reputation” (Items 6 and 7, Table 1).

—Boxley, Lawrance, and Gruchow, “A preliminary study of eighth grade students’ attitudes toward rape myths and women’s roles.” Journal of School Health (March 1, 1995).

That’s a lot of people, and a lot of young men specifically, who buy into the idea that forced sex is OK under certain conditions. They learn these things from somewhere, and there’s plenty of research on where they get the idea from, too. The answer tends to be: from male peers, from older men, from popular culture, and from pornography. (It’s worth noting that radical feminists and pro-feminist men identified these realities and wrote a lot of books and articles about them a good 10-20 years before professionalized social science caught on. The best work on what is sometimes called “rape culture” remains the work done by authors such as Susan Brownmiller, Andrea Dworkin, Robin Morgan, Timothy Beneke, and others.)

Young males are expected to play a very difficult role: that of the initiator,

Expected by whom?

which requires confidence, social skills, and assertiveness. Yet men are given no practical training on how to initiate things (let alone in a way that women are actually comfortable with!), but rather expected to figure out how to do it “naturally.” But not all men are confident, socially skilled, or assertive (especially not during youth), so not all men can play their role “naturally.”

Hence, we have an obvious recipe for disaster. During highschool, males have a high desire for sex, but only a limited ability to interact with girls.

I hear that during high school, females have a high desire for sex, too, but may have only a limited ability to get what they want from young men. Yet the rate of young women raping young men in high school is very low.

Generally speaking, people desire lots of things. A lot of males, for example, desire political power, but only a limited ability to interact with voters and lobby officials. Yet the rate of men forming gangs to enact violent coups d’etat is pretty low. What do you suppose makes the difference?

One thing that confuses…

One thing that confuses me is the use of “forcible rape” – isn’t rape forcible per definition? Anyone know?

The usual distinction is between “forcible rape,” where overt violence or threats of violence were used to coerce sex and “statutory rape,” where meaningful consent could not be given because of the age of the victim.

“the vast, overwhelming majority…

“the vast, overwhelming majority of men (and women) DO NOT RAPE.”

The Koss survey on sexual victimization on college campuses found that about 1 in 12 male respondents admitted to committing acts that met the legal definition of rape.

Now, if we just grant the measure as representative of the general population (it’s probably not, but the factors that would change it—e.g., the number of men who commit rape after leaving college—would mostly tend to make it an underestimation rather than an overestimation), that means that 8% of men are rapists, and about 92% are not. Does that mean a “vast, overwhelming majority” of men aren’t rapists? I don’t know; that depends on what you’re considering “vast” and “overwhelming” for a particular purpose. I mean, look, 92:8 is a big ratio, but it 8% of men is still a lot of men. In a country of about 115,000,000 men over the age of 16, that means about 10,000,000 rapists. It means that if you put 12 average men in a room together, the probability that at least one of them is a rapist is about 92%. (I am given to understand that most women will encounter at least 12 men on an average day.)

Most men are not rapists. But 1 in 12 is not a marginal population of freaks; it’s a hell of a lot of men, a hell of a lot of dangerous men who are not easy to pick out, who look more or less like “ordinary” men by any measure. And the notion that that’s a small enough minority that it doesn’t or shouldn’t make a difference to most women’s lives, or how most women react to men on a day to day basis, or to their political commitments and priorities, is frankly nuts.

Pick any of: F.W….

Pick any of: F.W. Murnau’s Nosferatu (1922), Todd Browning’s Dracula (1931—the one with Bela Lugosi), or Werner Herzog’s Nosferatu (1979), in comparison to Bram Stoker’s Dracula.

(I think good film adaptations of plays are a bit of a cheat, incidentally. It’s not like “the book” was meant to be primarily read as a book in the first place.)

This one’s like shooting…

This one’s like shooting fish in a barrel. Fun fish in a barrel.

The Lord of the Rings, Part I. No, not that one. The one by the dude who did Fritz the Cat. If you haven’t seen it, it’s not as bad as it sounds. It’s unimaginably worse. There are lengthy stretches during which it ceases to be anything that could be described as a “film,” let alone a successful adaptation.

The Name of the Rose. I actually don’t hate the movie. There are a lot of things that it does right. But considered as a version of the book, it’s just terrible.

And, of course:

The Ten Commandments. “Where’s your Messiah now Moses?” Enough said.

MOM goes on to…

MOM goes on to suggest that “instinct” may be responsible for this disgusting act: “Instinct in a young, roving band of teenage boys dictates imposing sexually upon a vulnerable girl…” In MOM’s view, young boys have an instinct towards gang-rape, which they need to be guided away from. …

I don’t think boys have a natural instinct for gang-rape.

Jiminy Cricket. And anti-feminists complain that feminists are “anti-male?”

That something like “I don’t think boys have a natural instinct for gang-rape” still needs to be said in our culture is embarassing. Look, we are talking about rational human beings here, not beasts. If they have come up to their late teens with a more-or-less unreflective desire to sexually assault young women then that’s deeply disturbing, but it’s not something that they are compelled by an inborn drive to do. It’s something that they have chosen and have been taught by other men in the culture at large to think is O.K. An appeal to mythical “instincts” to explain why they don’t think or care enough about a young woman’s humanity not to assault her amounts to nothing more than a cheap way to let young men off the hook when it comes to their own humanity.