• Jerry: “I think of spontaneous order as molecules forming dna. As fines reducing speeding. As incentives encouraging good behavior.”

Look, I don’t want to be a dick about this, but if this is how you think of spontaneous order, then you don’t have a very good grip on the concept of spontaneous order.

If a government agency decides that it wants to reduce speeding, and in order to reduce speeding it institutes a fine for speeders, and, due to the threat of that fine, people don’t speed as much as they used to, that’s not an example of a spontaneous order. It’s a paradigm case of a designed order: legislators wanted a different social outcome, so they instituted a law in order to achieve it and people complied with that law in order to avoid the penalty.

Whether “incentives encouraging good behavior” counts as an example of a spontaneous order or not depends on what the incentives are and why those incentives exist. If those incentives are the unintended byproduct of things that are done for reasons other than producing those incentives, then you have a spontaneous order (for example, when ATM card issuers standardize on a common shape and size for ATM cards, not because anybody set out to encourage standardization by creating specific incentives for it, but rather because, without anybody setting out to make it that way, it turns out to be most cost-effective to make ATM cards that fit existing wallets and ATM card readers). But if they exist because someone who plans to bring about a particular social outcome is deliberately creating those incentives for that kind of behavior, then what you have is an example of a designed order, not a spontaneous order. (As, for example, in the case of fines deliberately instituted to reduce speeding, or in the case of, say, offering to reward children with honors or money for good performance in school.)

• Jerry: “Instead of ad hominem arguments against me …”

Argumentum ad hominem is the logical fallacy of criticizing an argument by appealing to properties of the person advancing it, instead of assessing the argument on its own merits. As far as I know I have not used an argumentum ad hominem against you at any point. If you want to accuse me of doing so, you had better actually produce an specific example to substantiate the charge.

• Jerry: “since you have ignored other arguments against your theory (rape in mammalia, …”

I have no idea what the ethological argument is supposed to be refuting. Are you trying to make a claim that human men are biologically predisposed to rape? If so, I think that’s absolutely false (as does Brownmiller: http://www.susanbrownmiller.com/susanbrownmiller/html/review-thornhill.html), but it doesn’t constitute an objection to Brownmiller’s theory as discussed in my post. The part of Brownmiller’s theory under discussion is about the social effects of rape, not the causes of an individual man’s decision to commit rape, and rape could have those effects whether or not it is rooted in some underlying biological predisposition.

If you aren’t trying to make the claim that human men are biologically predisposed to rape, then what claim are you trying to make, and how does it relate to Brownmiller’s claim about the social effects of the systematic threat of stranger-rape against women?

• Jerry: “mothers protecting children”

I have no idea what the objection here is supposed to be. Is the claim supposed to be that mothers don’t gain social power over children in virtue of their role as protectors against certain kind of danger? Of course mothers gain social power over children that way. Parents enjoy immense social and political power vis-a-vis children, and most of the reason for that has to do with the “protector” role that they play.

If, alternatively, this case is supposed to demonstrate that, even though mothers do gain power over children, it’s not always a bad thing for one group of people to gain power over another by serving as their protectors–well, that much is certainly true. But I don’t think that the relationships between adult men and adult women ought to be like the relationships between parents and their children. Do you?

• Jerry: “rape decreasing with increased pornography and legal prostitution”

Again, I have no idea what point of mine or Brownmiller’s this is supposed to be responsive to. If you’re right about there being a direct causal connection here (again, I don’t think you are, but even if you are) how does that refute or even respond to absolutely anything in Brownmiller’s claims about the social effects of the systemic threat of stranger-rape against women?

Suppose it were true that the best way to reduce rape would be to make pornography and prostitution as widely available to all men as you possibly can. O.K.; what then? Does that logically undermine Brownmiller’s claim that the threat of stranger-rape has the effect of substantially limiting women’s freedom and substantially increasing men’s power over women? If it does undermine that claim, how does it undermine it? If it does not undermine that claim, why bring it up?

Generally speaking, you seem to want to make this into a broad discussion about feminism and radical feminist theories of patriarchy generally, rather than about the much more specific topic (Susan Brownmiller’s analysis of the social effects of stranger-rape) that my post addressed. If you want to argue about that other stuff, fine; there are lots of arguments about that kind of stuff on the Internet and I’m not about to get in your way if you propose to have another one. But that kind of argument is not actually a reply to the points that I was making in my post, and I for one have better things to do with my time than try to rehash those other arguments yet again with someone who obviously doesn’t have much interest in or sympathy with the perspective that I’m coming from. My interest here is only with making sure that as many people as possible understand a much more narrow and specific argument.

• Jerry: “I am still curious to why you think mothers collaborate with bullies as part of their invisible fist and spontaneous order.”

I think that there is no empirical basis whatsoever for treating this as a social problem of a comparable scope to rape and its effects on women. But if there are men out there who stay in a bad relationship because they are afraid of losing a relationship with their children, should they leave, and if being legally deprived of a relationship with your children is an example of violence against the person thus deprived — a claim that I’m not at all sure I’d be willing to endorse — then, sure, I’d say that IF both those things are true, then those men’s decisions to stay in those relationships is an example of an invisible fist process. There are lots of invisible fist processes in this vale of tears; my aim was only to explain one of them, partly for its own sake and partly for the sake of making something clear about the concept of “spontaneous order” than most libertarian writers have thus far failed to make clear. It was not to discuss each and every invisible fist process in the world.

Left-anarchists can not realistically change the hierarchy in male / female relationships without some heavy social engineering requiring heavy coercion.

I don’t think that the empirical evidence points very strongly toward the conclusion that anti-sexism would require a continuous process of “heavy social engineering.” (It would take heavy social engineering to get from where we are to an anti-sexist society, but as I see it, that’s because it took heavy social engineering to get to where we are, not because there is some perennial in-born basis for structuring social relationships in terms of sex-class.)

But suppose you’re right. Suppose there is some in-born, perennial basis that will keep asserting itself in favor of hierarchical relationships structured by sex.

Does it follow that any attempt to combat that through “heavy social engineering” will require “heavy coercion?” Only if all forms of social engineering are coercive. But they’re not. For example, mass literacy is only possible through heavy and continuous “social engineering” aimed at teaching children how to do something quite difficult over a period of years. But does mass literacy require coercion? Not as far as I can see.

Does it follow that any attempt to combat that through “heavy social engineering” is necessarily foolish or wrong? Only if all forms of social engineering are foolish or wrong. But they’re not. Lots of forms of deliberate “social engineering” are extremely beneficial (for example, teaching children how to read), and become harmful only when they are accompanied by coercion. If there are independent reasons for thinking that sexual equality is a valuable goal, then even if it is true that social engineering would be required to achieve it, that provides a reason for practicing the social engineering, not a reason for abandoning sexual equality as a goal. If there is some independent reason for rejecting sexual equality as a valuable goal, or for concluding that the costs of the social engineering processes outweigh the benefit to be gained from it, then certainly that’s a reason either to reject anti-sexism in principle or to reject efforts to implement it on a structural level in contemporary life. But you first have to produce those independent reasons; just pointing to some discovery about what human beings may or may not be naturally inclined to do won’t cut the ice you’re trying to cut.

Well, hell, if someone in a white lab coat says it, it must be true.

Certainly there is no reason to be cautious of appeals to scientific consensus in this field. There are certainly no prominent examples of appeals to scientific authority, or to psychiatry in particular, that had little to do with science and lots to do with providing cover for coercive normalization, inhuman “treatment” of so-called “patients,” or torture and brain damage posing as “cures.” No need to think for yourself, citizens; the experts have already done it for you.

Meanwhile, we can just safely ignore Szasz’s actual arguments, ignore the extent to which common criticism and “embarassment” over Szasz is based on easily refuted strawmen (such as the claim that he believes that hallucinations are “made up”), and substitute an appeal to authority and an ad hominem (abusive form).