Posts filed under feministe

Jill: Ah, I love…

Jill:

Ah, I love this talk of prevailing social values and community standards. Kind of how community standards dictated that blacks had rights about equal to those of livestock; or how community standards clearly didn’t want black children going to white schools; or how community standards decided that Jews were sub-human and could be killed by the millions; or how community standards dictate that if a woman is raped, she’s an adulterer who deserves to be punished as such.

David Thompson:

When the prevailing community standards held such, the law reflected those beliefs. When the community standards changed, the law changed in accordance. In a voluntary society, the laws are the mechanism to promulgate and regulate social mores; otherwise they are merely arbitrary diktats without the legitimacy conferred by social assent and respect.

You need to think harder about this. “In a voluntary society,” everyone affected by the law has a voice in making it. Jews under the Nuremberg Laws and during the Holocaust, Blacks under slavery and Jim Crow, and women in contemporary Pakistan didn’t have any meaningful voice in making the laws inflicted upon them — this was an essential part of the political structure that the Nazi regime, white supremacy in the United States, and male supremacy in Pakistan created — so describing the imposition of them as anything less than “arbitrary diktats” is tendentious to say the very least.

“The legitimacy conferred by social assent and respect,” if “social assent and respect” means nothing more than the assent and respect of the numerical majority of people, or a numerical minority that happens to have enough guns to dominate the discussion by force of arms, is precisely zero.

Consider_This: Actually Rad Geek,…

Consider_This:

Actually Rad Geek, and everyone else, according to this report: he didn’t actually hit her intentionally.

So please don’t toss around terms like beat until bruised.

You ought to look up what “RTFA” stands for. The article, which I did read, is not the same article as the one you linked below, and it does not specify how the bruises came about. But since Mr. Steinberg was charged with “domestic battery,” the likely cause was not hard to infer. If that inference was mistaken, and a different article that was not linked from here reveals this, then you’re right to point that out, but you’ll have to find a new phrase for the purposes of rhetorical jabs.

That said, here’s what the news report you linked to on the topic says:

At about 9 p.m., “she decided to call the police, at which time he either attempted to get the phone out of her hand or strike her, and he knocked the phone and hit her in the head with the phone,” Matheny said. “Then he took the connector out of the wall so she couldn’t call the police.”

You need to read this article more carefully yourself if you think that it states “he didn’t actually hit her intentionally.” Matheny suggests two different possibilities: (1) Steinberg tried to grab the phone out of her hand, bashed the phone into her head in the process, and then yanked the phone out of the wall; (2) Steinberg tried to hit her with his hand, bashed the phone into her head in the process, and then yanked the phone out of the wall.

If (1) is the case, it might be appropriate to say that “he didn’t actually hit her intentionally;” the blow was the unintentional result of an intentional assault of a different kind (ripping the phone out of her hand). If (2) is the case then of course he did hit her intentionally, since he bloody well intended to strike her and that’s what he did, although he ended up striking something else that ended up striking her. In the former case it might not be appropriate to say that he “beat” her, since that suggests that the blow was intentional. In the latter case it certainly is appropriate to say that he “beat” her, since that’s what you call it when you intentionally sock somebody in the head. In either case he was intentionally assaulting her and she ended up struck and bruised as a result. I’m not sure what impact, if any, you think that any of this is supposed to have on the debate, except to allow you to issue sleazy dismissals implying that it was all some kind of big accident — a position that not even Steinberg himself takes.

Consider_This: “Meanwhile amidst all…

Consider_This: “Meanwhile amidst all the erstwhile didactic cerebral diddling no one else has been courteous enough to answer any of my questions about women who abuse men.”

Abuse is bad. Women shouldn’t do it to men. If a female Op-Ed columnist were under investigation and basically copped to beating her husband until he bruised, I’d think that she should probably be suspended and possibly fired, too. Happy?

On the other hand, I’m not sure that your example (“the bitch is always on my case about something!”) is a plausible candidate for a form of abuse. Nor is physical assault an appropriate way to respond to even the worst forms of emotional abuse.

Andrew, So anyone who…

Andrew,

So anyone who hasn’t read anything by a radical feminist doesn’t know what feminism is?

Well … … … yes.

It is no sin not to have read very much feminist theory. But it is totally irresponsible to go spouting off about the aims and theoretical claims of the feminist movement when you have made absolutely no effort to find out about what those are from sources available at your nearest bookstore or library. If you went around ranting about the evils of empiricism without ever having read anything by Locke or Hume, then you would be laughed out of the room; if you made confident pronouncements about the poetry of T. S. Eliot while refusing to read any of it, then your opinion would be dismissed out of hand. As well it should be: since you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about (how would you?) and your assertions have exactly as much evidential grounding as if you were just making them up as you go along.

(Note, incidentally, that I am intentionally ignoring your silly efforts to identify Valerie Solanas as a leading radical feminist, or to beg off on doing the reading when it’s “radical feminists.” Because it’s clear that you haven’t read anything by actual leading radical feminists, and it’s also clear that you haven’t done any serious reading of non-radical feminist theory, either.)

nik,

Thanks for your efforts at an answer. I’m afraid I wasn’t clear enough in my question, though. I know that the term comes from “Who Stole Feminism?” but I say that I don’t know what it means because I can’t find any coherent thread in Christina Hoff Sommers’ usage of the terms, or for that matter in the use by those who have adopted or adapted the distinction from her writing. It rather seems to me that it’s part of a long-standing tradition of Radical Menace politics in response to the feminist movement — that is, concocting a distinction between “reasonable” feminists and “hysterical” feminists, in order to try to divide the movement in order to make political headway. This has come from both within and without the movement, and the labels are always different — suffragists vs. feminists, “power feminists” vs. “victim feminists,” “moderates” vs. “extremists” (“man-haters,” “feminazis,” etc.), straight feminists vs. lesbian feminists, “First Wave” feminists vs. “Second Wave” feminists, “liberals” vs. “radicals” (there actually is a coherent distinction between first and second wave feminists, and also between liberals and radicals, but these terms have often also been abused in Radical Menace discussions), “sex-positive” or “pro-sex” vs. “anti-sex” (!) feminists, “Third Wave” vs. “Second Wave” feminists, “equality feminists” vs. “difference feminists,” “equity feminists” vs. “gender feminists,” etc. etc. etc. Of course, there are genuine factions within the feminist movement and I’ve no objection to identifying factions where factions exist, but it does seem to me that it’s important to make sure that these are distinctions based on the real distinctions in the thought and practice of the people involved, and not something that merely break down to “the feminists that I feel comfortable with” and “the feminists I don’t like”. When it does, the distinction serves only rhetorical purposes, not theoretical understanding.

Sorry for the lengthy prologue; this is one of my pet peeves. That said, let’s see how you set out the distinction:

  • “Equity feminists” which — she says — is a doctrine of equal rights between the sexes (liberal feminism, first wave and beginings of the second).
  • “Gender feminism” which — she says — views domination of women by men as a pervasive system, is opposed to liberalism, and is in favour of socialisation and state action (whenever people mention patriarchy, third wave).

This is probably consisent with what CHS gives as her “official” definition of equity feminism and gender feminism. But there are a number of problems. First, because they don’t divide the field cleanly, and they leave out some important factions. When she contrasts the “gender feminist” analysis of sexism as a pervasive social system with the “equity feminist” understanding of it in terms of individual violations of equal rights, it seems that she wants to line up her distinction with the liberal/radical distinction; but then why not just use the terms “liberal feminist” and “radical feminist” (which are widely known and originated from within the movement itself), instead of making up your own? I think part of the answer is that Hoff Sommers and many of those who cite her want to move the boundaries so as to move many high-profile liberal feminists from the “reasonable,” “liberal” side of the divide to the “hysterical,” “radical” side. In any case she doesn’t make the distinction cleanly. “Viewing domination of women by men as a pervasive system” and “a doctrine of equal rights between the sexes,” for example, are not mutually exclusive; the first claim has to do with the political question of how sexism operates, whereas the second claim has to do with the separate ethical question of what it is that’s wrong with sexism. You could believe in either, or you could believe in both; and in fact many feminists, historically, have believed in both — for example, First Wave feminists such as Susan B. Anthony or Elizabeth Cady Stanton or Abby Foster Kelly certainly considered the oppression of women to be systematic; they often compared their condition to that of Black slaves and their movement to the Abolition movement and to revolutionary uprisings such as the American Revolution. Many of them also suggested that the primary wrongs of this systemic domination were the violations of individual women’s equal rights that it enabled individual men to routinely commit. So does that make them “equity feminists” or “gender feminists” or both or neither? I don’t know.

Nor does viewing women’s oppression as systemic commit you one way or the other on the question of state action to remedy oppression; in fact many First and Second Wave feminists who were clearly liberal rather than radical in their orientation put a lot of effort into campaigns for state action or women’s ability to direct state action (e.g. the campaigns for the vote, antidiscrimination law, the ERA). On the other hand, many radical feminists have called for State action in various fields, but many others have been anarchists and/or advocated avoiding State channels. (This includes many lesbian separatists, who I imagine Christina Hoff Sommers would certainly want to include in her “gender feminist” category if she wants to include anybody.) So do pro-state-intervention liberals count as equity feminists, gender feminists, or neither? What about anti-state-intervention radicals? Again, I haven’t got the foggiest, and the problem is I don’t think CHS does either.

There’s another important criterion that you don’t mention — CHS suggests that “equity feminists” have “equality” (before the law, and possibly before some other prominent social institutions) as their main goal, whereas “gender feminists” reject claims of equality in favor of an political programme based on gender difference, which will either stop the suppression of women’s differences from men, or advantage women over men, or both. (This is part of the reason why Carol Gilligan is a particular object of her wrath.) Here it seems like she is trying to mimic not the liberal / radical distinction, but rather the “equality feminism” / “difference feminism” distinction. I have problems with the latter distinction too, but the chief problem with Hoff Sommers’ distinction is that she seems clearly to think this point is very important, but also seems very clearly to insist that people be lumped together on this point when they actually have nothing in common. For example, “gender feminism” is clearly used to pick out and criticize all of the following: (1) postmodern or poststructuralist feminists who regard gender as entirely performative, (2) radical feminists who regard gender as a socially constructed fiction that is violently enforced as a material political reality, and (3) feminists such as Elizabeth Gould Davis, and maybe Carol Gilligan, who are some sort of biological or spiritual essentialists about gender differences. But if you can be tagged as a “gender feminist” for believing that gender is a fiction that ought to be abolished, and tagged as a “gender feminist” for believing that gender differences are inherent and ineliminable, then again, I don’t have any idea what is being picked out by the term.

One more point of…

One more point of curiosity. I ask because this seems to be a very common theme, actually, with people who yell about “radical feminism” or “gender feminism.”

Andrew:

No, I know exactly what feminism is. I don’t need a reading list to learn more about it. I have better things to do than read Andrea Dworkin’s screed or Valerie Solanas’s revision of Mein Kampf.

Feminism is not about equality, as I wrote earlier it’s about Marxism and special privleges.

Question: if you refuse to actually read any major feminist works, then how do you have any idea about “what feminism is?”

Andrew: Interesting, since I’m…

Andrew:

Interesting, since I’m probably more liberal than most Democrats and feminists. Unlike that wonderful feminist, Hillary Clinton, I opposed the Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq, the war it green-lighted, and the subsequent occupation. Unlike the feminist John Kerry, I support same-sex marriage.

Well, that settles it, then. Congratulations on having managed to move to the left of two weak-kneed moderate Democrat Presidential hopefuls. I’m sure I’m not alone here in standing in awe of your relentless ideological commitment.

It’s kind of hypocritical for you to be criticizing my reading comprehension skills since you and other gender feminists obviously can’t read the US Constitution or you would know that the 14th Ammendment doesn’t contain a “right to privacy.”

(1) You keep using that phrase, “gender feminists.” Just what do you mean by it, anyway? I’m curious, because I keep seeing it used and I have absolutely no idea what it means, if it is supposed to mean anything beyond “feminists that the speaker finds icky.” Could you explain to me what characteristics all and only gender feminists have, which set them apart from the good feminists that you like?

(2) Portraying the doctrine of a Constitutional right to privacy as if it were the invention of some coven of “gender feminists” is either wilfully ignorant or else disingenuous. If you are going to pride yourself on being able to read, you should also spend a little time reading Supreme Court decisions, especially the majority opinion in Griswold and Roe (authored by those notorious gender feminists William O. Douglas and Harry Blackmun). Of course, you can agree or disagree with the Court’s findings (which incidentally draw on principles underlying the Bill of Rights — especially the 4th Amendment and the 9th Amendment — not just the 14th). But you’ll have to actually address their arguments, not just lamely point at the Constitution (which they, of course, read, and cited in their decisions). And you ought to recognize that your issue is with decades-old settled case law in the United States, not with “gender feminists.”

“Case in point: For…

“Case in point: For years now, we’ve walked a very specific line on the issue of abortion. The government shouldn’t be allowed to tell us what we can or can’t do with our bodies has been the mantra of pro-choice advocates for 40 years. And while I certainly agree with that point, it doesn’t play well. The past two elections, and especially in this last one, our candidates have just looked silly with lines like, I have a tenet of faith, but I can’t force that tenet of faith on anyone else, when compared with a consistency from the Republicans on the issue.”

Pardon? Every time people are asked about invasive government restrictions on abortion in polls, lines like “The government shouldn’t be allowed to tell us what we can or can’t do with our bodies” does play very well. The problem is that it seems to be impossible to get Democrats—oh, hell, let’s say it, Democratic men—to just come out and say that without and endless stream of Concerned Looks and hand-wringing and apologies for being pro-choice like the majority of people in America and far more useless blather about how much you want to reduce abortion than about how it’s unconscionable for some well-armed prick in Washington to ordering women around on how and when to use their uterus.

The Clinton line is a case in point—and it just gets worse with repetition. “Safe, legal, and rare” is a slogan that uses rhetorical emphasis to highlight the fact that the speaker is conceding that there’s something wrong with getting an abortion, instead of the fact that jailing women and/or doctors is dead wrong. Of course that doesn’t motivate people; it doesn’t motivate people because the slogan apologizes for itself immediately.

Most Democratic men seem to feel profoundly uncomfortable with saying this (Howard Dean being the noble exception). Most Democratic women don’t seem to waste everyone’s time with it (Hillary Rodham Clinton—alas!—being the ignoble exception). But Democratic men have been the candidates for the past, well, 200 years, and thus we have weaselly ignoramuses like George Bush, who looks visibly uncomfortable and resorts to dog-whistle soundbites whenever the matter comes up in a public forum, looks like the Voice of Integrity by comparison.

Yeah, this is stuff I’ve worked over before, but it’s still true. If the Democratic candidates would stop trying to devise creative new apologetic soundbites and actually get on board with the fact that the party is pro-choice, they’d have a lot more success than they actually do.

Well, I treat posting…

Well, I treat posting on my website more like pleasure reading than like Mass: if I can’t get together the energy to do it on a given day that’s too bad but it’s not a mortal sin. But if I’m feeling lazy and want to post something, I usually resort to:

  1. Link farms — sometimes a lot of stuff builds up that I want to mention but don’t have more than a couple sentences to say about. Sometimes this falls naturally into themes; other times not.

  2. Quotes. Lots of quotes. I pick up a book (preferably one with material that’s not already online) and pull out a quote and put it online. There’s 1,000s of years of literature out there and a lot of it is by people who are more interesting than me, so I enjoy turning the space over to them every now and again.

And, if I do have energy, but just don’t have anything very topical to talk about, there is always:

  1. Digging up old comments — those that could use a longer, philosophical response, and reply to them at length.

All excellent recommendations. You…

All excellent recommendations. You might also add Mozilla Thunderbird, an e-mail client coming out of the same project as Firefox, as a replacement for Outlook Express. Partly because it is more secure, and partly just because it’s by far a better e-mail client—it features excellent spam filtering, good IMAP support, a better interface, etc. (It also, for what it’s worth, features a handy-dandy Atom/RSS newsreader, and happens to be the main way that I keep up with blogs these days…)